(A debate excerpt)
by Gerard Holmgren
Because the plane huggers always lie about my position, I will make it quite clear before I start with the documentation. (The planehuggers will still lie anyway about what I said, but it will be easier to catch them at it, if I say this clearly right here)
I'm not claiming that the witness evidence proves any particular kind of object. What I'm pointing out is that it does *not* confirm a large jet. I am posting this in response to the endless cries of “thousands of witnesses” from plane huggers who can't supply any, and who make wild reckless claims like
[[can you provide proof of *ONE* individual that said they saw a missile ?]]
[[But in this case, you cannot name ONE witness who says he saw a missile ?]]
The witness evidence doesn't tell us a whole lot about what it was, but what it tells us plenty about what it wasn't.
My position on this is the same as when I wrote the Pentagon witness article in June 2002.
I never claimed that the witness evidence proved one thing or another . I just said that it did *not* confirm a large jet. This is also what I'm saying here. Now lets watch the planehuggers lie again “Holmgren claims that the witness evidence proves it was a missile…”
Planehuggers ,being the sort of people who believe in 767s with 90 degree angle wings which do snapping karate strikes on buildings, are unable to distinguish between “proves the opposite” and “doesn't prove anything”. Or if their plane addled brains can manage to come to terms with this concept then they just lie about what I wrote.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can tell you that I was watching TV, and there was this sonic boom, and the TV went out. And I thought maybe the Concorde was back in service, because I've heard about that sonic boom. And I went to the window -- I live in Battery Park City, right next to the twin towers -- and I looked up, and the side of the World Trade Center exploded. At that point, debris started falling. I couldn't believe what I was watching.
LIN: Jeanne, we are continuing to look at pictures of this devastating scene, according to Sean Murtagh, vice president of finance, who witnessed what he described as a twin-engine plane, possibly a 737. e was almost absolutely sure it was a large passenger jet that went into that.
Jeanne, you are saying you didn't see anything initially. You didn't see a plane approach the building?
YURMAN: I had no idea it was a plane. I just saw the entire top part of the World Trade Center explode. So I turned on the TV when I heard they said it was a plane. It was really strange….
…LIN: Fortunately so. When you say a sonic boom, did you feel anything? Were things shaking in your apartment?
YURMAN: Yes, you could feel it. It was a gigantic sonic boom. The TV went off for a second and went back on. And the windows -- you felt the vibrations on the windows.
What kind of passenger jet makes a sonic boom, apart from the concorde ? And she heard it well before the impact. In time to look out the window before the impact. And saw no plane and had “no idea” that a plane was involved. Why would a passenger jet cause a power disruption – before the impact ?
"There was a power surge. The lights flickered. I looked outside and I looked at the towers and all of a sudden the whole top of the North Tower just burst into flames," she says.
I wasn't even sure it was a plane initially. I thought it was a missile attack. Most of the time you hear a plane at an airport they're landing or taking off and they're not at full throttle.
I turned right to hear their response; just then I heard a sonic boom. I turned back and saw the second tower engulfed in flames.
That's when we heard the crack of what sounded like a sonic boom and looked up.
It happened quickly. Later, after, time would bend and twist like the wreckage itself; seconds becoming minutes, minutes seconds, and hours swept and snapped into different time signatures like modern jazz. But in that first instant, it was fast. A glimpse. A speeding black projectile, maybe two, shooting from left to right into the side of World Trade Center One.
A very accurate description of Blobs 11 as it appears on the video. A 767 (complete with sonic boom and power surge) would be described as "A speeding black projectile , maybe two" ?
HARDWICK SIMMONS, CEO, NASDAQ: It's a terrifying story, Susie. I was sitting there at about quarter of nine in the morning and all of a sudden a kind of a sonic boom went right off over my head.
So, plenty of support for a sonic boom. Heh, but since in planehugger land, 767s have 90 degree angle wings enabling them to hit the tower flush, why not a 767 which flies at supersonic speed? Anything is possible in planehugger land. Except the idea that the media and Govt lied.
WTC Ch. 07
MALE: Either … either a plane crashed into the Trade Center, or a rocket hit the Trade Center. And, uh, people are all over the place, dead.
… MALE A: The first one they think was a guy shooting the missiles off the Woolworth Building. And the second one they think is an airplane that was circling to watch it, and hit the World Trade.
INSPECTOR: One more question. Why do you think it might be an airplane?
PAPD RAY MURRAY: Uh, that's what one of the units, uh, said over the air. That's all. That's the only reason I say that.
A medium size or small plane flies very low overhead – straight into the north tower of the World Trade. There is no way to think of it. He stares. Is it real? It is burning three quarters of the way up the building. It must be real, but it cannot be. It flew very low overhead. He stares at it and shouts to everyone who can hear him, Come out right away!
I would say 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago, there was a loud sound that I can only describe it--it sounded like a missile, not an airplane.
SAWYER: And am I right? Are you a pilot?
DAHLER: Well, I have flown. I do not have a pilot's license, but I--I grew up on military bases. and I know the sounds of jets. And--and I've been in war zones and--and heard those kinds of different sounds. So, again, not to cause any kind of undue speculation but the sound itself was not of a prop plane. It was perhaps a jet. But it could have been a missile as well.
GIBSON: Can you give me--was it--was it a whining sound, Don, or what?
DAHLER: Yes. It was--it was a--how to describe it. It was a high pitch, but it had a--a--a whooshing sound. Not--not like a prop plane…
Mr. ARRAKI: I saw it come up from the left, and I saw the plane coming through to the building, go inside. A small plane.
GIBSON: You say small plane. Was it a jet?
Mr. ARRAKI: Excuse me?
GIBSON: Was it a jet plane?
Mr. ARRAKI: No, no. It was plane, you know, like they teach the people to pilot plane--small plane, you know. It was that kind of plane.
GIBSON: You mean like a small single or double-engine prop plane?
Mr. ARRAKI: Yeah. Double-engine, yeah, yeah, yeah.
GIBSON: Right. And it actually went into the building there on the upper floors?
Mr. ARRAKI: Yes, going into the building, and I never saw that plane before. It's like something--I don't know, it's like they work with the motors--I never saw a plane like that before! Yeah!
GIBSON: And did you see the second plane come in?
Mr. ARRAKI: Yeah. I--I saw--yeah, I saw the second plane, it go boom. I--I heard, you know. I just wake up my head like that I saw the side, too.
GIBSON: And that second plane much larger than the first?
Mr. ARRAKI: Same. Same, two both. Both same.
GIBSON: They're both the same?
Mr. ARRAKI: Yeah.
GIBSON: Because the pictures we see, the second plane looks rather large.
Mr. ARRAKI: No, is going inside, too. Is going inside the building, too. And the second hole it's smaller than the other one.
GIBSON: And it actually also penetrated the building? You could see it go in?
Mr. ARRAKI: Yeah, inside. Inside, inside. No planes outside, no planes.
So here we see exactly what I was talking about. The witness says small plane (and very strange looking) and the reporter, influenced by the TV replay of the second strike pressures him to say that the second one was bigger, but the witness resists.
(here, bear in mind that Gibson and Sawyer are in the studio watching on monitors and Dahler is actually at the scene watching live)
Don Dahler--ABC's Don Dahler, who is on the scene--Don, just give me some description again of what you're--what you can see now.
DAHLER: Well, we see--it appears that there is more and more fire and smoke enveloping the very top of the building, and as fire crews are descending on this area, it--it does not appear that there's any kind of an effort up there yet, now remember--Oh, my God!
SAWYER: Oh, my God! Oh, my God!
GIBSON: That looks like a second plane has just hit ...
DAHLER: I didn't see a plane go in. That--that just exploded. I...
GIBSON: We just saw another plane coming in from the side.
DAHLER: You did? I was--that was obscured from my view.
GIBSON: That second explosion, you could see the plane come in just from the right-hand side of the screen, so this looks like it is some sort of a...
SAWYER: Oh, my!
GIBSON: ...concerted effort to attack the World Trade Center that is under way in downtown New York.
SAWYER: We will see that scene again just to make sure we saw what we thought we saw.
GIBSON: We're going to give you a replay of what we just saw, and I--I must admit, I thought it was some sort of fire equipment or some sort of observation plane, but it was obviously designed to attack the World Trade Center. We're going to show you that--here's a replay of the videotape.
(Replay of videotape shown)
GIBSON: In a second, that looks like a good-sized plane, came in and hit the World Trade Center from the other side. So this is obviously, or would seem to be, and again I'm dealing in speculation, but it would seem like there is a concerted attack against one of the towers of the World Trade Center under way.
SAWYER: We had seen a plane coming in from the other direction earlier. I had noticed it. Had you, Charlie? I didn't know if that plane had been circled wide and came back from another direction, but we all watched it, and I just assumed...
GIBSON: Don, could you hear that? Could you hear that plane as it came in?
DAHLER: I did not hear that plane, but I had to step inside the window because the fire crews were so loud--the sirens--that I couldn't hear you.
GIBSON: I got you.
DAHLER: I did see the explosion, but the side of the building that the plane entered was just outside of my view, so all I saw was this huge fireball and the explosion.
GIBSON: Well, the shot that we've got is now just from one side of the World Trade Center, but this is the shot again--this is moments ago of this--of this second plane coming in, and this is now in slow motion.
(Replay of videotape shown)
GIBSON: Ah, this is terrifying--awful.
SAWYER: We watch powerless. It's a horror.
GIBSON: All right, we're going to go back to live coverage now. You're looking at live pictures, and there is the second fire, which was brought about by this second plane that hit the tower, and Don, from everything I can see, it was the same tower that was hit the first time, right?
DAHLER: No, it's the second tower. It is the...
GIBSON: It's the other tower.
DAHLER: It is the other tower that was hit.
GIBSON: My mistake.
DAHLER: They targeted--from your--from what I'm seeing on television, from your view, they are--the two towers are in--one is in front of the other one, but it was definitely the second tower that was hit about halfway down, not quite as high, and from my view here, it does not seem to be as--as big, as much damage as the original. It--I don't know if that means it was not as big a plane or what. I did not see the plane go in, but it's--I mean, it's horrendous damage, but it doesn't seem to be the gaping hole through two sides of the building like on the first one.
SAWYER: Don, from your vantage point, can you see if there are people coming out down below?
DAHLER: I don't--I can't see the bottom of the base of the building.
GIBSON: There's the wider shot of the two towers now. Both towers have been hit by planes now in the last half-hour, and again, I say, we are--we are totally powerless in knowing what's going on here, except that it would obviously appear this is--can't be a coincidence like this. It would, obviously, be some sort of a concerted attack against both towers of the World Trade Center. This is--again, we're going to show for the third time this tape of the--of the airplane flying in and hitting the World Trade Center.
(Replay of videotape shown)
GIBSON: This is slo-mo, slow motion of the plane coming in and hitting the obscured second tower of the World Trade Center, and you can see flames coming out. And I can't see the plane coming down. You know, if it just...
DAHLER: Charlie, that's a commercial size jet. That is--that did not look like...
GIBSON: No, that's a good-sized airplane. That's...
DAHLER: Yeah, that is--that is not a little commuter plane. That was a good-sized jet.
GIBSON: And I can't tell if it actually flew into the building or if it just clipped it with a wing. And if it did, of course, then there's the frightening prospect that the plane would have crashed right on the streets of--very busy streets of New York.
Once again, the studio reporter saw the plane on the monitor, the witness on the spot did not see a plane. Before anything can be reasonably discussed, the witness who thinks there was no plane gets a replay shoved in his face. Understandably enough, he assumes that it must have been obscured from his view. What else would he think ? This is the *exact scenario* which I mention in the "why they didn't use planes" scenario. They didn't need to. It was seen live on TV, and anybody who didn't see a large jet was convinced that they just missed it or didn't see it properly. Except for Mr Arraki, and nobody takes any notice of him.
Dr. J., what can you tell us?
DR. J. ATLASBERG (ph), REPORTER: Hello, Steve.
I'm actually uptown at 86th and Riverside. I can see the World Trade Center from about half the building up to the top. And about five minutes ago, as I was watching the smoke, a small plane -- I did -- it looked like a propeller plane, came in from the west. And about 20 or 25 stories below the top of the center, disappeared for a second, and then explode behind a water tower, so I couldn't tell whether it hit the building or not. But it was very visible, that a plane had come in at a low altitude and appeared to crash into the World Trade Center. ..
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jim, I don't know whether we've confirmed that this was an aircraft, or to be more specific, some people said they thought they saw a missile. I don't know how people could differentiate, but we might keep open the possibility that this was a missile attack on these buildings.
KAGAN: Were you close enough to see or get a general idea of what kind of plane that was that flew in the second time?
TRACTSONBURG: Well, I'm not an expert on planes, but it didn't seem like a big passenger jet. It was smaller type plane, because it made some pretty radical turn, and flying low.
I distinctly remember somebody saying: "A missile just hit the trade center, I saw a missile hit."
"I saw it," he says, "It could have been a plane, but I think it was a bomb — uh, a missile.
I stood immobilized, watching the flames.
Then there was an explosion, and fragments of glass rained down on my head. I saw a huge hole in the roof of a building two blocks from the World Trade Center. I thought there were incoming projectiles of some kind, missiles or mortar rounds, and began running away from the burning buildings
McGaughey was at his desk at the 217 Broadway location when he heard "what
sounded like a missile"…Someone from the other side of the building reported that
he had seen what appeared to be a missile going into the tower in a reflection on his computer screen.
Victor Rao had just stepped off the elevator on the 11th floor of a building a block away at the corner of Murray and Church streets, humming a "silly Beatles song," when he heard a sound like a low-flying plane.
"I turned and said to my friend, 'Man, that plane is flying low,' " he recalled hours later. "Before I could even get the last word out, it hit the side of the building and just blew the other side out."
Rao, a 40-year-old account executive for an export company, called his wife at work and told her he thought a missile had just hit the World Trade Center. He soon learned from the radio that it had been a jetliner.